Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Hello and salaam everyone, and welcome back to the History Speaks podcast. I'm your host, Roshanikbal. Today I'm really delighted to be joined by Dr. Saba Fatma, who is a professor of philosophy at Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville. Her work explores the intersection of ethics, political philosophy and contemporary Islamic thought, often with a sharp focus on social justice, gender and identity. She brings real depth to the lived experience of marginalized communities, especially Muslim women in the west, and challenges the dominant paradigm that have shaped how we think about religion, grace and belonging.
Today we will be talking about her new book, A Brief Guide to Shia Islam Beliefs, Practices and Exemplars. But before we dive into the book itself, I want to step back and say a word about the broader field of Islamic studies in Western academia.
To put it gently, Shia Islam hasn't gotten the warmest welcome for decades. The study of Islam in the west has centered Sunni perspectives, often treating Shia thought as a footnote or worse, as an aberration.
The result has been a narrow and often distorted representation of a diverse and dynamic traditional. And this problem isn't unique to Islam. Other non mainstream religious traditions, even Christian traditions like African Christianity, have suffered similar erasures, often filtered to the same Euro Christian colonial lens. And let's be honest, writing about Shia Islam in this academic context can be punishing. It doesn't win you easy recognitions. Your work can be ignored, misunderstood, or simply not engaged with. So I just wanted to take a moment to commend you, Dr. Fatima, for taking on the subject and for doing it with a writing style that is mercifully free of footnotes and academic jargon. One of the things I really appreciated about your book is its tone. You've produced something that students, lay readers, and even your auntie who only reads Eid cards could sit down with and actually enjoy.
And I think that's no small thing. It also connects to what I was saying earlier.
Some ideas, feelings and spiritual commitments simply can't be expressed when you're hemmed in by a particular Western academic protocol.
So with that in mind, Dr. Fatima, I'd love to start by asking, how do you see your book pushing back against some of these academic tendencies and what made you want to write a book on Shia Islam in this particular moment?
[00:02:38] Speaker B: As salaam alaikum, everyone. Thank you so much Roshan, for having me. I truly, truly appreciate you platforming the book because as you said, our scholarship as Shias, but also as women, often isn't engaged with. So you gave the perfect intro to how I See this book pushing back against the narrative that Shia Islam is an aberration or a footnote.
So generally, when people speak about Islam on TV or radio or whatever, they're often referring to Sunni Islam, which is such an erasure of the rich traditions of Islamic schools of thought and practices.
So my point of writing this book was to decenter Sunni Islam in discourse and in practice and, you know, sort of challenge the assumption that Sunni Islam is the default.
Shias make up about 15 to 20% of the world's Muslim population, yet there are so many misconceptions about us, both within Sunni communities, but also amongst non Muslims.
And this is because so much of what is written on Shias actually comes from Sunni sources, or at least relies on them. So I wanted to write something about Shias by a practicing Shia, but also something that was accessible to everyone and not overly dense.
So I wanted to center Itna Asher, Shia in particular, simply as Islam.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: And I would say that, you know, the sources that you refer to, they're not like academic sources. These are like wayward Sunni sources that then get referred. So your book clearly steps into a gap. It's accessible, thoughtful, and rooted in lived experience. But before we get deeper into some of its themes, I wanted to take a step back and set the stage to begin at the beginning, not with the familiar Sunisha polemics that you were referring to just now that have developed really over 13th centuries, but with an earlier, more fluid moment when the Prophet, peace be upon him, passed away. No one at this time identified as Sunni or Shia in the way we understand the term today.
These identities, theological frameworks, took time to emerge and solidify. In other words, things don't start fully formed, they take time to congeal.
And we can call this early time the period of proto Sunni and proto Shia phase. I will also add, however, that this is true for a linear historical understanding of Shia Islam. Shias will tell you that in the metaphysical realm, Nabuwat, or prophethood, and imama, has always existed before what we have now as time and place.
But going back to the immediate aftermath of the Prophet, peace be upon him death. The Muslim community faced the pressing question of leadership right at Saqifa, a meeting of the Ansar Muslim supporters of Medina and some of the Muhajirun, early followers of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who migrated with him from Mecca to Medina to escape persecution. Abu Bakr was selected as the first caliph. His election was not based on divine designation, but rather on communal consensus, or at least the consensus of those presentations this moment, while often narrated as simply in historical accounts, is layered and contested.
And it reveals early signs of the differing approaches to authority that later become more formalized within Sunni and Shia scholarship.
The emphasis on consultation or shura and pragmatism in Sunni memory stands in contrast to the Shia understanding that succession was divinely ordained.
But at this early stage, the categories were in flux and the meaning of leadership was being negotiated in real time.
One of the key distinctions often brought up when discussing Shia Islam is the question of leadership after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Can you explain, Dr. Fatima, how Shias understand the concept of Imamat and how that differs from the Sunni perspective of what Imamat is and why it matters?
[00:06:53] Speaker B: So Shias believed that during his lifetime, Prophet Muhammad explicitly appointed his cousin and son in law, Ali IBN Abi Talib, as a successor on multiple occasions, but most notably at Ghadir Khum. And this appointment was an infallible directive from an infallible prophet.
So Ali, as the first Imam, was not chosen because he was a son in law, or because he grew up in the house of the Prophet, or because he was the first person to accept Islam publicly, or because he married the Prophet's daughter. He was chosen because he was the best person spiritually and politically. He was the best human. He was the best Muslim of his time. So in Shia theology, there are 12 imams in total after the Prophet. And the term Imam means leader. But in this particular context, in the Shia context, it refers to a divinely appointed, sinless guide who safeguards the message of Islam.
So these imams, they receive no new messages, no new revelations. Rather, they preserve, they interpret the teachings of Prophet Muhammad without error. So their legitimacy does not come from hereditary alone. For example, two of the 12 were not the eldest sons. And also their legitimacy doesn't come from being related to the Prophet because they were uncles of the prophets that were like evil human beings. Like, you know, Abu Lahab, for example, is mentioned in the Quran as being cursed.
And so, and he was a direct uncle of the Prophet. But their, their position in Shia Islam comes from the fact that these were the best people of their time. They were the best Muslims of their time. They had the most spiritual and the most.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Political acumen.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah, of their time. So Sunnis, by contrast, they believe Prophet Muhammad did not appoint a specific successor and they accept the leadership of the first four caliphs, Abu Bakr, Umar, Othman and Ali, as the rightly guided. For Sunnis, the word Caliph is like, it just refers to a political leader that was chosen by community, not by a divinely appointed guide. But from the Shia perspective, after the Prophet's death, Ali was sidelined as he was preparing the body of the Prophet for burial. And Abu Bakr was chosen as the first Caliph in a meeting, the Bani Saifa meeting that you mentioned, without representatives from most of the tribes of the Muslim lands. There were like very few tribes present.
It didn't even have representation from the Prophet's own clan, Banu Hashim.
So, you know, Abu Bakr was not democratically elected. He was chosen essentially in, as a matter of expediency. Similarly, Abu Bakr, the first Caliph, appointed Umar the second unilaterally, without consulting the wider Muslim community.
And Umar then in turn created a six member council to choose the third caliph, Uthman. But this process was limited to a small elite group and gave veto power to one person. So why have the six, group of six. And because that person with the veto power ultimately made the decision to elect Uthman and he was also related to Uthman. So these first three caliphs, they ruled for a very long time, like two years for Abu Bakr, 10 and then 12 respectively for Umar and Uthman, four years. Yeah. So these first three caliphs are not democratically elected from Shia perspective, they're not even general consensus elected.
And more importantly from a Shia perspective, they're not picked because they were the best men of their time spiritually. They were picked for political expediency.
Shias believed that Ali IBN refrained from challenging the early caliphs to avoid fracturing the young Muslim community, and he instead dedicated himself to teaching and preserving Islam. And we often cite the 5th Surah, 55th Ayat as evidence of Ali's authority, in which God says that people who give charity while bowing in prayer in Ruku as the guardians of the faithful.
And that was an incident that referred to Ali giving charity while in Ruku. So for Shias, the Imam at is rooted not in political power, but in spiritual authority, in moral perfection and in divine appointment.
Other than Imam Ali for the five years that he was a Caliph and Imam Hassan for three months of his caliphate, he was Imam for, I mean, he was Caliph for a very short period of time, three months. No other Imam amongst the 12 has held any political office. In fact, they have faced severe, heavy persecution from the ruling caliphs of their time. So ultimately, the Shia view of Imama is that each Imam is the best Muslim of his time, appointed by God through Prophet or the preceding Imam, and is protected from sin and is uniquely qualified both in religious and in moral matters.
And this me seem like simply a theological matter, and it is. But it has ended up over time shaping Shia and Sunni practices, our rituals, community identities for centuries based on this theological difference between the two sects.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: Thank you. That was really sort of clarifying. And now that we have a sense of what Imamat is and why it matters in Shia Islam, can you walk us through who the 12 imams are and what role they play in Shia thought and devotion?
And while the 12 are the largest Shia group today, could you also briefly introduce the Zaidis and Ismaili branches, how they differ in their understanding of leadership and succession?
[00:12:40] Speaker B: So I can't go into each of the 12, but there's plenty of information available online. AlIslam.org, al-Islam.org is a great resource.
And also my book, obviously.
Yes, your book, yes. But in 12 or just means 12.
In 12 hour. Shia Islam, the 12 imams are considered divinely appointed. And they begin with Imam Ali, who was Prophet's cousin and his son in law. And they continue all the way down, ending with Imam Mohammad Al Mahdi, who is believed to be an occultation or in hiding and he will return to establish justice. So these imams are not revered as prophets, but as infallible interpreters, interpreters of Quran and the Prophet's teachings. So I think that's really, really key in terms of some of the misunderstanding that a lot of people have about our Imams. And yeah, we are the largest Itna Ashri, the Twelvers are the largest Shia group. You know, predominantly found in Iran, part. Iraq has a massive Shia population, Bahrain has a massive Shia population. But there are other Shia traditions, I.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Would say India and Pakistan.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Yes, India and Pakistan, of course.
Oh, and Lebanon must not forget Lebanon.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Syria.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Yes, Syria. Syria, though less so.
I mean, I don't, you know, I briefly like have a line about the Alawis, which are often not considered.
Yes, There are also some Itnaashari in Syria as well. There are other Shia traditions. And for example, you mentioned the Zaidis, they're found mainly in Yemen. So a lot of times when people talk about Houthi rebels in Yemen, they are actually Zaidis, though the conflict in Yemen has nothing to do with Shia Sunni conflict. No matter what political commentators from the west have to say about that, Yemenis do not see it as a Shia Sunni conflict, but a conflict between ruling class that is supported by Saudi Arabia and the indigenous class that is fighting against the ruling class and the Zaidis they believe in the first four imam of it, Nashri Muslims, but they follow Zayd bin IBN Ali, another son of the fourth imam, as their fifth. And I think they don't hold their imams as infallible, but they do have a tradition of political activism, much like Ihnashri school of thought. The Ismailis share belief in the first six imams of Iitnashri, and they recognize Ismail Ibn Ja', Far, the eldest son of the sixth imam, as the seventh.
And Eatnashree is considered the the second son as the rightful heir. So the Ismailis ruled a very vast empire under the Fatimid dynasty, by far the most successful rule of Muslims. And they ruled from the 10th to the 12th century. And the Ismaili tradition includes Akhanis, whose imam, Prince Kareem Al Husseini, is the direct descendant of the Prophet and the Boras, who believe in 21 imams.
And they are led today by Dalun Mutlaq, who serves as their representative for their own hidden imam. Their last imam is also in hiding.
So these branches, they diverge in terms of leadership and succession, but we all share a very deep devotion to the family of the Prophet, that Ahulbayt, and a belief in the Imamat as a source of spiritual authority.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Mm.
So, I mean, when you were speaking, two thoughts came to mind. First is that I want to emphasize that, you know, they are the minority, like the Zaidis, and Ismailis are a rich and profound tradition. And I hope at some point I can do a podcast that sort of speaks to them and captures all these other sort of smaller Shia sects.
And I guess I. At this point, I was thinking about Imam Ali, who is the first imam for Shia imams and who was sort of nominated by the Prophet. And I wanted to mention something that I think our students who are listening and other lay people might find interesting, is that I want to highlight that all Sufi orders in Islam trace the lineage, or sil Salsalah, back to Imam Ali, who is the first imam of the Shia. As we spoke, who is the Prophet Muhammad's son in law. As you mentioned, he was the first male to embrace Islam and someone who was in many ways, ways, raised by the Prophet himself.
So in Sufi tradition, Imam Ali is not only a historical figure, but the primary inheritor of the Prophet's inner knowledge and spiritual light, which they call the Noor.
He is often described as a silent bearer of secrets whispered from the Prophet's heart to his. And he holds a central place in the formation of Sufi metaphysics and practice.
There is one notable exception. I should mention the Naksha Bandi order of Sufis. They trace their lineage through Imam Ali and Abu Bakr, so Abu Bakr, the first Caliph, reflecting a dual transmission of spiritual authority.
In this light, one might say that all Sufi orders, regardless of formal sectarian affiliation, are, in a deeply meaningful sense, Shia in spirits.
I find this to be both poetic and telling and something to leave the audience to think about in terms of the sort of how the Prophet chose Imam Ali. But part of why the idea of noor, or the transmission of inner light and knowledge can feel foreign and difficult to readers in our culture milieu, I think, is because we are post Cartesian. So you know, Greeks used to be pre Cartesian. For us it is I think, therefore I am, meaning that thinking is actively something I perform and that proves my existence. But for pre Cartesian Greeks, the act of thinking pointed not to the self, but to the object of thought itself, which extended to a higher, more real world.
It was more like a spiritual faculty, what some mystics later called the fine point of the soul, a way of directly touching the truth, of becoming united with it, rather than simply understanding it. So when Shia tradition speaks to the Prophet's noor being passed to Imam Ali, it's not merely a symbolic gesture or a hereditary right. It's a transmission of spiritual capacity, a kind of fusion with the truth itself. In this view, inheriting leadership isn't about bloodline or communal authority. Like you said, it's about becoming the vessel of divine light.
And that, I think reframes the whole question of succession, not as a political moment, but as a mystical one. And this is something you also kind of like speak about in your book and you mentioned right now. In any case, that brings me to the next question.
One of the most unique and frankly mystifying aspects of 12 Shiism is the belief in the occultation of the 12th Imam. And I can imagine if I was not raised as a Shia, I might have like confusion and questions around that too.
So could you explain what occultation is and how it is understood within the tradition? And if I may push a little, how do scholars and believers respond to the criticism that the idea of an Imam who disappears and continues to guide in unseen ways feels like it is all too convenient an explanation for a crisis of leadership? In other words, how does the theology hold up to this kind of skepticism?
[00:20:36] Speaker B: So in 12 verse Shi', ism, the 12th Imam, Mohammed Al Mahdi, holds a unique place as a divinely appointed leader who is still alive, but he's in Ghaiba or occultation, as you said.
He was the only son of the 11th Imam, Hassan Al Askari, and he was hidden from his father's after his father's death in the ninth to protect him against assassination attempt by the Abbasid Caliphate.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: And you mentioned, like all imams are persecuted, but at some point in the Abbasid era, the persecution became extreme.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Yes. And so, yeah, Imam Hassan Al Askari was kept under house arrest, and he was really heavily guarded and had a very difficult life.
So did imam rada.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: 11Th imam.
Yeah, and now we're going to the 12th imam.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Yeah, so. So. So his father was kept under house arrest for a long time there. So that was the 11th imam. So then his son, Imam Mohammed Al Mahdi, had had to be kept hidden from the empire at the time.
And the empire at the time, the Caliphate, the Abbasid Caliphate, they saw Taimam as a political threat. They saw that if, if this person is out and about, people will revolt. People will follow this person, this person will develop a following, and there will be a revolt against the Caliphate. So Imam Hadi guided people in this world and then eventually had to go into a minor occultation and then where he was only communicating through people that he trusted, and then eventually he went into complete hiding. So during this occultation, he's still in occultation today. So during this occultation, Imam Mahdi remains spiritually present. He's guiding the faithful in ways that sometimes are unbeknownst to us, but oftentimes for very spiritual human beings. There have been people who have made contact with the Imam and he will guide us until God decrees his return. So 12 that when Imam Mahdi reappears, he will not bring a new religion, but he will restore the pure teachings of Prophet Muhammad. He will restore the pure teachings of Islam, of justice, and there'll be a realm of global justice in his time that his oppression will end, the marginalized will be uplifted, and Prophet Issa or Jesus will return and he'll pray behind him in a sign of unity.
As far as skepticism, critics often do frame it as the occultation as a convenient solution to a leadership vacuum. But our scholars, they respond by pointing to scriptural precedents for divinely appointed figures whose absence serves as a divine purpose. So, for example, Prophet Khidr led a very, very, very today, to our minds, an impossibly long life.
Or for example, Prophet Musa or Moses was in concealment during his infancy from the Pharaoh. This belief is grounded of occultation, is grounded in Quranic principles. It's not coming out of nowhere. It's grounded in the principle that God will always guide us.
Quran says that God will never leave humanity without a hujjah, without a living proof of God's divine authority.
So from this perspective, the Imam's physical concealment is not an absence of leadership, but just a different mode of it, preserving the Imam's life until the appointed time. So for believers such as myself, this is not a crisis of leadership. It is a test of faith in God's timing and wisdom.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: That's really helpful. Thank you. And I have to say, listening to your talk, I'm reminded of how even in the realm of physics, especially quantum physics, recently you've had to completely rethink what presence, time, and even reality means.
Not that I understand all of it, but I'm so extremely fascinated by the little things that I come across.
For example, in quantum mechanics, there's this idea of superposition, where particles exist in multiple states until they are observed. It makes me wonder if the Imam's presence is something like that. Not fully here in the way we expect, but not gone either. Or. Here's another concept of time dilation in relativity, for example, how time moves differently depending on where you are and how fast you're going. So what feels like a thousand years to us might, from another perspective, be just a blink of an eye.
It doesn't prove anything, of course, but it opens up space to imagine the occultation as something more layered than just absence. And I hope I haven't misunderstood these concepts. But regardless, I think that there is a lot of space now to rethink these ideas, other than just saying, oh, a human can't live that long, so how is someone an occultation for these many hundreds of years?
So now, moving to that difference in leadership centered on Shia concepts of Imamat brings us to one of the most pivotal moments in Shia history, the events of Karbala. Karbala sits at the heart of Shia identity, shaping its theology, rituals, and moral imagination.
Before we get into it, I want to mention to our listeners that we explored the event in depth in episode nine of the podcast Karbala and Nobility, where I speak with Dr. Cyrus Zargar about his beautiful book, the Ethics of Karb Karbala. In that episode, Dr. Zargar reflects on how every figure in Karbala models nobility in the face of certain loss.
It's an episode well worth visiting, but for today, Dr. Fatima, could you help ground us in the historical and theological importance of Karbala? How does this event Continue to shape Shia belief and practice today.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So first, I want to second your recommendation to Dr. Zargar's podcast. It was pretty amazing. So I'm not going to repeat a whole lot that he's already said, but. The Battle of Karbala occurred in 680, and it marks the martyrdom of Imam Hussain, who was the grandson of the Prophet of Prophet Muhammad. He had a small band of his followers, about 72 men, but he also had his children, his family, and the children of many of his followers and their families.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: And.
[00:26:57] Speaker B: And it was them against the Caliph of the time. It was them against Maviah's son from the Umayyad Empire.
And his name was Yazid.
So this. This was a battle, if you want to call it a battle between Imam Hussain and the Caliph Yazid. And it was not a battle for power, because here, like 72 men and thousands and thousands in Yazid's army, it was a stand against tyranny. Imam Hussain refused to legitimize Yazid's corrupt rule. Yazid wanted the allegiance, or at that time, essentially, you know how our political candidates seek endorsements from other political candidates. At the time, you would seek endorsements or bayt or allegiance from tribal leaders or people of importance. And Imam Hussain was by far the most important person at the time. He was the direct grandson of Prophet Muhammad. And so he was the direct.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: He was the grandson of the Prophet and the third Imam. Just because it's.
[00:28:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And he was the third imam, the son of Imam Ali, and he was beloved by the Prophet. The Prophet used to love this child. He used to love Imam Hassan, his brother, who's the second Imam, and Imam Hussain. They were the grandsons of Prophet Muhammad. He used to love his grandsons. He used to play with them. He used to say, you know, if you love me, you will love my grandsons. You love Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain.
You know, if you. If you hurt Hasan and Hussain, you've hurt me. So, I mean, there's so many hadith of the Prophet about how much love he had for them.
So Al Yazid wanted the allegiance of Imam Hussain and he wanted the endorsement of Imam Hussain. And Imam Hussein refused to legitimize Yazid's corrupt rule. And instead, he knew that he had to uphold the true principles of Islam. He had to say, I do not endorse this person.
So theologically, Karbala symbolizes that resistance to injustice, that resistance to oppression.
And it. It also symbolizes sabr, this concept of perseverance or moral steadfastness.
I will say that unlike Christian notions of redemptive sacrifice of Jesus, who Jesus died for our sins according to Christian theology, Imam Hussain didn't die for our sins. We are not absolved of anything because he sacrificed himself to preserve to the true message of Islam, to preserve Islam's integrity.
He died to preserve the message. He didn't die for any of our sins. We are accountable for our own sins. And then his sister Zainab, who was also the granddaughter of the Prophet, she also played a very, very crucial role after the battle. She delivered powerful sermons. She exposed Yazid's crime. She was an amazing political figure.
She is essential to restoring the true message of Islam. If it was not for Bibi Zainab, if it was not for Zainab, we don't know what would have happened to the message of Islam.
And she was able to reframe Karbala from being seen as a rebellious group who is rebelling against the caliphate of the time. And she was able to reframe that narrative in into Here is a group of people who are willing to die to preserve the message of Prophet Muhammad. Here's a group of people who will not say okay to injustice or okay to oppression. She was able to reframe it as a moral victory.
So this incident remains central to our identity as Shias. It's a model of political resistance. It's a model of ethical courage and of faith.
And we live these lessons annually as we remember the Battle of Karbala.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: You know, at some point, I'd love to do podcasts from Zainab too.
Thank you so much for that. So, you know, Karbala isn't just a historical event for Shias. It's something that continues to live in our ritual, in our memory, in our embodied practice. One of the most central ways to which this happens is the majlis that we hold during Muharram. And really two and a half months and then a little sprinkling of it during the year.
Majlis literally means a place of sitting, but it functions in the Shia sort of religious practice as a gathering space where religious stories, stories of Karbala, ethical values and theological insights are shared and passed down.
What is the significance of majlis in Shia religious life? What actually happens in these gatherings and why do they matter?
[00:31:58] Speaker B: Yeah, so majlis, or gathering, as you said, it's the heartbeat of our communal worship. Especially during Muharram.
These assemblies where we gather and we sit together, they serve as a space for religious storytelling. But also for moral reflection and a sense of collective grief over the tragedy of Karbala and what happens during these events. There's a sermon.
Well, it depends on actually which culture you belong to. So I'll speak a little bit to South Asian and American culture or. Yeah, the combination of the two in the United States context. But essentially you'll have somebody recite Quran at the beginning, then you'll have somebody recite some hymns. Yeah. Poetry that reflects their grief for what happened during Karbala. And then there's a sermon where a scholar will get up and they'll discuss Islamic ethics, Quranic teachings, and then they'll end towards the events of Karbala. They'll end with an emotional retelling of Hussain's martyrdom. And each day, as Dr. Zargan mentioned, is devoted to a different figure, oftentimes, culturally speaking.
And so there's a retelling and then. And then it ends with matam or.
Which is essentially a chest beating or any other act of lamentation that serves as a catharsis for the grief.
So it's not just a place for, you know, where we just sit together and listen to somebody. It is a living space and it's a sacred space where the tragedy is not confined to pages of history, but it's a live event present through not just the words of the scholar who's reciting them, but through tears of the audience that's listening to them and the resolve in their heart.
So the love for the Ahlulbayt, the household of the Prophet, is renewed with every retelling for 1400 years. Annually, for 1400 years, there's a retelling of Imam's Hussein's stand against tyranny. And this kind of strengthens the love we have for Imam Hussein, but it also strengthens our resolve against oppression, our resolve against tyranny. And so it's not just remembered every year. It's felt.
It creates a political resolve. And I really, really recommend to everybody to attend maybe one Majlis in the first 10 days of it is riveting. I've invited people from my classes, I've invited my students. I have an open invitation to my students to. To come. And they have, and they leave quite surprised and shocked when they see what that charged atmosphere looks like.
[00:34:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so palpable and it's so sort of. The grief is real and, you know, whatever the theme of the topic of the lecture is, like, so sort of moving and then it all connects back, back, because every good thing connects back to Karbala and the stance that Imam Hussein took. Right?
[00:35:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, grown men are crying. They, like, their hearts are wide open, like fathers, grandfathers, not running down their nose, tissue paper boxes being passed around. And this is not a wallowing in grief. This is.
It's not that we're just, you know, it's about allowing our empathy and our humility to. To take. To take root. So we don't cry because Imam Hussain died. We don't cry because he was martyred. We cry because of the unbearable suffering that he and his family and his companions endured in order to preserve the soul of Islam. And this grief is transformative every year. It softens our hearts towards other oppressed people. It sharpens our moral vision, and it tells us how to embody sabr. How to embody that steadfast patience, but that. With that perseverance aspect to keep resisting regardless of what's happening.
And you said, like, why do madlisses matter? They matter for all these reasons that I just mentioned, which is that, you know, this is about, like, a political message. It is. It is about inspiring communities to challenge oppression, but it's also a profoundly human experience that engenders empathy. So it is central to who we are as a people.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: You know, recently, for many reasons, I was taking some personal inventory, and not in some dramatic way, but I was just thinking about what has shaped me. Why am I like this way in the world? And I realized that one of the biggest influences has been watching my parents live as devoted Shias, always going to majlis week after week, hearing lectures on moral strength, on the courage to do what's right, on being good, not just outwardly, but inwardly. These messages didn't cease, didn't create, like, religious devotion. They built a strong moral compass inside of me.
So when I came abroad to study, like, and I saw some of my peers kind of drifting at least from the Muslim values we were raised with, I felt something hold me back. And honestly, it was all of those voices I'd heard growing up, echoing in me, urging me to stay true, to be good, to be brave enough to do the right thing and with God's grace, I didn't falter.
That, to me, is the quiet but very, very powerful role of Majlis. It plants something deep inside you that protects you in this life and the next.
And perhaps the most visible and emotional resonant express of this is the morning of Ashura, like, you know, on the 10th of Muharram, the day commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain. How do you think the morning rituals of Ashura reflect deeply theological beliefs about suffering, justice, and redemption in Shia Islam.
[00:38:07] Speaker B: Yeah, suffering is something that's kind of been on my mind recently. I think I've mentioned to you before of Mike that, you know, my father is, you know, who is one of the biggest moral exemplars of my life. He's suffering through cancer.
And my.
My interest in theology stems in part from him.
Largely in part from him, I would say. So suffering is something that I have been thinking more so about. And I think the morning rituals kind of help us realize that suffering for truth, suffering for justice, suffering in resistance has a lot of meaning, has deeper meaning than winning political victories.
There's also elements of faith in there, obviously, which is that having a victory of sorts, having. Winning a battle at the end, winning an election at the end. For example, like, I'm thinking of Mahmud Mamdani's son, Zoran Mamdani.
Winning a political victory of sorts is not the end goal there.
Staying true and steadfast to your principles. The fact that, for example, in terms of Zohra and Mamdani, the fact that he was able to stay true to advocating for Palestinian suffering and take a stand against the tyranny that the Palestinians are going through and still winning the Democratic primary, standing up for the values that he believes in.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Yeah. By the way, I am going to do a podcast in Zoran Mamdani. It's already set up, so I just have to record it on, like, Muslim Americans and Islamophobia and Zoran Hamdani's success and.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that is amazing. That is amazing. That would be so good. Yes. I mean, yeah. Anyways, I could go on about Zoran.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: We all have crushes on him.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Political crushes. Crushes of resistance. Like, here is a person. And again, I do want to say that I am not under any delusion of a messiah complex of sorts, but rather as an exemplar of what it means to be a political leader in terms of staying steadfast to the principles you believe in.
So I don't think that Mamdani is going to become the mayor and all the problems of New York are going to be resolved. But the fact that if he does win the general election, that he's winning it based on the principles that he believes in and not on lobbying money and so on and so forth. So I'm not delusional. I'm not in some Messiah Obama complex of, you know, back of 2016. So anyways, so, yeah, so, I mean, there's there's suffering, there's faith, but there's also obviously a call for justice. There's a, this which I've spoken already about. But redemption, redemption is something that you just mentioned and I do want to say that redemption has a strong part which is that turning this, this sacrifice of Imam Hussain and mourning turns this grief into a source for, for personal renewal. Like you mentioned, like taking that personal inventory. Right. And it gives us that spiritual reward that you just spoke about which is like that stop that speed bump. Like hey, like be a good person, stand up for your principles and so on and so forth. So that's that yearly renewal that helps us a lot in our daily life and it's a living legacy. So Ashura's message is as urgent as ever. But especially today I'll say a couple.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Of things that came to mind. First, let's not forget to mention that Zoran Mandani is Shia. Thank you very much.
And then, you know, I can I.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: Say one more word about Zoran Mamdani? There's actually, I apologize but like there's actually, there's actually a video of him talking about the sacrifice of Imam Hussain. He just, in the first 10 days he did go to Al Khuy in New York City which is, which is one of the biggest Shia centers of New York City in Queens. Ten minutes from my in laws home.
And so he actually went to Al Khui and he, and he, he spoke about how Imam Hussain's sacrifice guides him politically as well.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: Yeah, see like it has an impact. And so going back to like earlier I shared how like Madlis shaped me. But I should be honest that when my mom was dragging me to Mudlis, I didn't really want to go. I didn't go willingly. I dragged my feet and I didn't quite understand like what the pull was.
And when it came to Matam which is a chest beating or self flagellation that can happen during Asura, I really did not know what to do with it.
I would just stand there uncertain while others beat their chest, some gently, some in full face force.
It may be uncomfortable.
I remember speaking recently with another Shia female academic who said the same exact thing. And we both realized that upper class Shias had some kind of issue with like, like physical manifestation of grief and had deeply internalized the western idea that grief should be quiet, it should be controlled, it should be intellectual, not physical or embodied. Right. But now it feels almost morally in advocate not to feel Karbala in the body.
The scale of that grief demands something More than words and something more than just tears coming down your eyes.
And when I started studying Islam formally, I saw how Orientalist scholars have been both fascinated and rebelled by Muharram rituals, rituals that we sort of practice during Muharram, especially self flagellation and other intense expressions of mourning.
But the discomfort isn't really about Islam. I've had a like occasion to think about this, and I think it's more about a broader unease with embodied emotion, especially when it comes to blood or pain or collective sorrow.
And yet, for those who are grieving or hold or holding this unbearable loss, physical expression can be the most honest way through.
To dismiss these rituals as irrational or extreme is to impose Euro Christian ideas of decorum. And in doing so, you know, one commits epistemic violence against a community.
I think like our rituals, like the whole matam refuses to let other people's grieve, and it refuses to let other people grieve in their own language, which is like through self flagellation.
Okay, so these rituals are really rich in meaning, at least to Shias.
And this brings me to another key aspect of Shia tradition. What role does marja, or religious authority like the Grand Ayatollahs, play in Shia communities? And how does this compare to Sunni structures of hierarchy?
[00:45:29] Speaker B: So generally when people think of ayatollah in United States context, they often are only thinking of the two political figures that they've known, Ayatollah Khomeini and Ayatollah Khamenei, the two supreme leaders of Iran. But Grand Ayatollah is or Ayatollah. Ayatollah comes from the word ayat, which means sign. So ayatollah sign of God. And they serve as sources of emulation or merjatul, taqlid. They provide us religious guidance through ijtihad, which is independent reasoning based on Quran, hadith, scholarly consensus and aqal, or logic.
And there are hundreds of ayatollahs that are alive, not just those two that I just mentioned, but there are hundreds of, I mean, Ayatollah Khomeini has passed away since, but hundreds of ayatollahs that are currently alive and their rulings or their fatwas, they help navigate modern ethical issues and legal questions, like from mortgages to interest rates, because you cannot get a house in United States without a mortgage, for example, or do bioethics, in vitro, fertilization, cloning, you know, ayatollahs help navigate those modern ethical issues of our time.
Unlike the Pope, though, Ayatollahs are not infallible and they are many.
And Shia, Itna Ashari, Shias may choose any one of them any different. You know, they can choose between lots of different mergers. And what this helps us in is that there's a diversity of opinions even amongst Itna Asrishi as so there's no centralized following on the minutia aspect, which I think is key. There's general consensus on the main things. But even in the minutia, like it's just Haram or is it halal? You know, people might differ on it. Sunni Islam, on the other hand, lacks a centralized clerical hierarchy. Religious authority is more decentralized.
The ulema or the scholars, they interpret law within, you know, you know, based on their own interpretations of the Quran and Hadith. And Sunni imams are not like our sense of imama. They're not divine or anything. They're just regular people who might be leading prayers. They offer guidance to their clergy and they do not often hold the same kind of binding, binding authority as obviously the danger of that is that a lot of times lay people take up the mantle of being an imam and can lead people toward extremism of sorts. So a lot of the people who are in ISIS or earlier, before that in Al Qaeda had very little knowledge of Islam, did not know much about the Quran or the Hadith, but were claiming themselves.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: They were not formally trained.
[00:48:20] Speaker B: They were not trained at all. And there's like a Western. I remember the reporter who was kidnapped and he said he was citing the Quran back to he was a non Muslim reporter citing the Quran back to his captor. And his captor had no idea that the Quran said this or that about captors.
And so, you know, that can be a little bit of a danger.
And some Sunni movements like Salafi Islam or Wahhabi Islam, they reject clerical hierarchy entirely and they just emphasize direct engagement with the scripture. So in the US most Shia Itnashri Muslims, they can follow lots of global or local Marjors, ranging from Ayatollah Sistani, Ayatollah Khamenei, Ayatollah Najafi, Ayatollah Shirazi. I'm just naming some of the big ones. And the decision to follow a Marja or a source of emulation, it's a personal choice. Each Muslim has to make it for themselves once they reach puberty. And there is no rigid system of enforcement to make sure that you're following the edicts of your merger, the fatwas of your of your source of emulation.
Their edicts only apply if you so choose to follow them.
So it is ultimately our own conscious that guides us in following our marjas, like our conscious tells us that, hey, this is a reputable, good source.
We should listen to this person.
[00:49:49] Speaker A: Thank you. That was really helpful. As my final question, what do you think Shiasm contributes to the wider Islamic tradition or even a global religious thought that is distinctive and widely.
[00:50:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's an amazing final question. Thank you so much again for having me. I will say that as a practicing Shia Muslim, I think our most distinctive contribution to the wider Islamic tradition and even global religious thought is the central place of empathy and justice.
Every year, through commemoration of Karbala during Muharram, we relive the moral stand of Imam Hussein, who sacrificed everything to oppose tyranny. So this isn't just history to us. It's a yearly renewal of our commitment to stand with the oppressed. Whether that means confronting police brutality here in the United States or speaking out against Islamophobia of the larger community, or advocating for racial or gender justice.
It renews that sense, that commitment to standing with the oppressed. In Shia thought, justice is both a moral and a spiritual imperative.
God will ultimately right every wrong.
Every minutia will be accounted for by God. Every minutia, intent and action will be accounted for by God. But in this world, in the here and now, we are called to act now. So that blend of compassion, that blend of compassion and moral courage and our willingness to sacrifice for what's right shapes how we live with our faith in America today. It's about being present in the world, making it better, and never compromising on principle.
[00:51:28] Speaker A: Thank you so much for that response. That's so beautiful. If I may, like, you know, I'd like to add two brief reflections of my own.
First, I think about the role of majlis, which we spoke about not just during the two sacred months, but in the scattered gatherings throughout the year. It offers something quite profound. In a world where doing the right thing often feels difficult or lonely, Majest places you again and again in the moral gaze of the community and centers God consciousness.
[00:51:57] Speaker B: Right?
[00:51:58] Speaker A: Like, how many times can you hear, x is wrong, Y is wrong, do X because that is good, and not do it. It's like being in the line of sight of an elder or an innocent child. Someone who sees you and in that scene reminds you what you want to be. The gentle pressure towards goodness is an invaluable gift. I think that like sort of Majlis and Shiism gives us, but. And second, I think like you were mentioning, the stories of Karbala themselves, their moral and emotional core can be utterly transformative. I mean, I cannot emphasize this more.
Stories of truth spoken to power, of loyalty and friendship, of choosing sacrifice over silence, of love for family over love for life, of unwavering moral courage even when it costs everything.
These aren't just stories to admire. They're stories that shape lives. And, you know, especially since if you hear them, since you're growing up, since you're like a child.
And I truly believe that holding the prophet's family with love and reverence and letting their example guide us is one of the most powerful and sustaining experiences a person can have.
Dr. Fatima, thank you so much for the rich, layered and deeply thoughtful conversation.
You've helped eliminate not just the core tenets of Shia Islam, but also its moral and emotional depth, something that so often gets flattered and mainstream representations to our listeners. Thank you for joining us. If today's conversation sparked your interest, I encourage you to check out Dr. Fatima's book, a Brief Guide to Shia Islam, and also circle Back to episode nine, Karbala and Nobility, with Dr. Cyrus Sargar. Thank you again, Dr. Fatima Sam.
Dr. Roshan Iqbal
Dr. Saba Fatima
