Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign hello and salam. Dear listeners, this is your host, Rosh Nikbal. Welcome to History Speaks, a Maidan podcast.
I'm especially excited about today's episode because I'm joined by an amazing scholar and dear friend, Dr. Yunus Mirza. Dr. Mirza is the founding director of the Barzinji Institute for Global Virtual Learning at Shenandoah University.
He is the co author of the book the Bible and the Biblical Figures in the Islamic Tradition. And I just learned that there are 50 figures in the Quran and the Bible. His teaching has been highlighted by Interfaith America and he has won an award for his outstanding first year seminar.
Today we'll be speaking with Dr. Yunus about his new book, the Islamic Mary. Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to take a moment to highlight Dr. Yunus Mirza's remarkable book, the Islamic Mary. At just about 155 pages with six concise, deeply informative chapters, it is an accessible yet profound contribution to the field. What really makes this work stand out is that there are only a handful of English language books devoted entirely to exploring Mary in Islam by Muslim scholars. In fact, just two. The last one was by a Muslim woman, Alia Shaifer, titled Marry the Blessed Virgin of Islam.
Published back in 1997, this new book, the Islamic Mary, is the first of its kind written by a Muslim man that matters. And it matters a lot. For centuries, Muslim women have naturally been drawn to marry Maryam, her purity, her strength, her singular role in sacred history.
But there is something especially moving, even heartening, about seeing a Muslim man dedicate a decade of his intellectual life to studying her, to. To bringing Mary or Mariam to us in all her complexity and beauty.
In doing so, Dr. Mirza reminds us what it looks like when men take women seriously in the realm of faith and scholarship. It's not just an academic act. It's an act of care, of attention, of honoring the fullness of our tradition. And I think that's something worth pausing over before we go further.
You know, one thing that really struck me after I finished reading your book, Dr. Mirza, was this. We all think we know Mary or Maryam. She's so familiar that in a way we don't really see her anymore because we assume we already do. But your book opened my eyes to how many lessons and moral insights her life actually holds for us and how much we have been missing by not taking the time to really reflect on her story.
And I'm so glad to be talking to you about her today.
So Eunice, to start us off, could you share what inspired you to write Islamic Mary?
Was there a particular question, experience or moment that sparked your interest in exploring her story instead of working on figures, say, like Moses Musa or Ibrahim or Abraham?
[00:02:58] Speaker B: So thanks so much, Roshan for that wonderful and beautiful introduction. So for me, my interest in Maryam started when I was a child. So I had three sisters and I became very interested in their lives and activities to the point I joined their Girl Scout troop as an honorary member. And then now as a father and someone who's married, I have three daughters myself and I'm involved with their Girl Scout troops. I'm their cookie manager for their troop. So we had a successful season last year where we sold over a thousand boxes. Wow. Of cookies. So. So growing up with women throughout my life, it makes you think about the relationship of women and religion, particularly women in scripture. And I think the second origin of this book comes from post 9 11. So I was a student at Georgetown University when 911 occurred. I was actually studying Arabic and a fellow student came in and said, do you know what happened? And we said what? She said, we've been attacked. So we immediately canceled class.
I tried to get home, the Pentagon was attacked. So there was a huge traffic jam. And I remember getting home and feeling that my life had changed forever. So during this time, post 9 11, there was this emphasis on Abraham or Ibrahim as this unifying figure. And if you look at the majority or a lot of my early scholarship, it was focused on Abraham. And Abraham is this classic patriarch. He's the one that fathers the great religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. But more recently there has been an emphasis on Mary or Maryam. And Maryam, I believe, opens up new possibilities. She's a woman, she's a mother, she becomes pregnant, she has birth, she goes through labor, she's a speecher, she's a teacher, a spiritual guide. So she is someone that I think has gained more interest in modern times because there's a more interest in Christian Muslim relations and the role of women in religion.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that background. It's fascinating to hear what drew you to Mary's story and your own personal autobiography. Building on that, let's turn to how she actually appears in the Islamic sources themselves before we dive into what the Quran says about Mariama Mary. A little context for listeners who might not be familiar with Quran structure.
So for those who have not read the Quran or seen the Quran, the Quran is neither chronological nor strictly thematic.
Mary's story doesn't unfold in one continuous sequence from birth Onwards, and it is also not shown to us in any one chapter of the Quran. A helpful way to imagine the experience of reading the Quran is to think of the film pulp fiction, Tarantino's 1994 classic that jumps around in time, opening with a dinner robbery, while the main story starts and ends at different points. Or for a more recent example, think of Christopher Nolan's 2020 film The Tenant, where events move back and forth between the future and the past. Like these films, the Quran layers stories across time, encouraging the reader to piece together the narrative from different angles rather than following a straight line. I also mentioned the structure of the Quran not being chronological thematic because it highlights a challenge for Orientalist scholars obsessed with the question of origins, who often try to trace whether and how the Quran was plagiarized. They are stumped by this nonlinear structure. If someone had borrowed from other sources, why not present it in a more straightforward, familiar order?
Understanding this helps us appreciate the unique way the Quran is written and tells Mariama Mary's story.
Another really important point in understanding how to read the Quran is orality is absolutely central.
I haven't yet found a fun or catchy way to explain just how crucial that is, but let's just say this. The Quran isn't only meant to be taken in with our eyes, listening, reciting, even feeling the words. All of that plays a huge role in how the Quran is truly experienced.
With the short background, let us go to your book which explores how Maryam Mary is presented in the Quran. Dr. Yunus, could you begin by describing how Maryam or Mary is mentioned in the Quranic narrative and what makes her story unique to the Islamic tradition?
[00:07:33] Speaker B: So one of the things in studying Maryam in the Islamic tradition is you realize how prominent she is in the Quran. She's mentioned 34 times. There's a chapter named after her. She's constantly mentioned in relationship to, to Isa, to Jesus, but she's also a figure in her own right. So a couple of things that stand out in the Quranic representation is that there is actually a birth story that talks about Maryam. So oftentimes we think about Maryam giving birth to Jesus or as the mother of Alisa. But in fact, Maryam is presented first as a daughter rather than a mother. And in this really powerful story, her mother is having a child and she has this expectation that this child will be a boy, someone who will serve the temple and be a rabbi. However, she is surprised and maybe even initially disappointed that she has a girl. And then the Quran says, well, the male is not like the female and reassures her and tells her that this girl is special. Her name will be Maryam and. And she will be among the righteous. So we see that the Quran is presenting an origin story of Maryam herself. She grows up, she becomes a righteous woman, and she has this unique relationship with Zachariah Zechariah to the point that he comes into her room and he finds her there in worship. And she has fruits out of season.
So he asks her, maryam, where did you get these fruits? And. And she says, these fruits are from God. He provides to whoever he wills. So this leads to epiphany for Zakaria. He says, well, if Maryam can pray and she can get fruits out of season, then maybe he can have a child. And at this time, Zakaria is older, his wife is barren, he's given up hope on having progeny and someone to live out his legacy. But Maryam inspires him to pray and to God and eventually he has a child which is John or Yahya. We also see that the Quran emphasizes Maryam's vulnerability and her suffering and pain. So in the biblical tradition, when Maryam has Jesus, she's surrounded by other female figures and she is singing the praise of the Lord. However, in the Islamic tradition within the Quran, she is understood to be by herself in solitude. She then begins to exclaim that she's in pain and that she wished she was forgotten and had died long before.
So this, these different representations present Maryam as a protagonist, as an individual figure and a model of emulation.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Thank you so much, that's really helpful. And as we move forward, I will want you to sort of tease out the details of the specificity of some of the verses. But before we move to that part, I was wondering if you could also sort of let our listeners know how does the hadith tradition, which is which hadiths are reports of the Prophet discusses Maryam or Mary. Are there particular stories or themes from these reports that deepen or reshape how Muslims understood her?
[00:11:01] Speaker B: So that's an excellent question and one that I've been thinking a lot about because there has been focus in Islamic studies, especially in biblical and chronic studies on these figures within the Quran. So we also have to understand that these figures are not only in the Quran, but they exist in the prophetic literature, the Hadith, the Sierra, the biography of the Prophet Muhammad, theology, mysticism, art, and so forth. So in the hadith literature, Maryam appears first in the biography of the Prophet Muhammad. So in the beginning of his biography. The Muslim community is nation. They're small, they're being persecuted, even tortured. So Muhammad tells a group of his companions to go to Abyssinia or Habasha to seek refuge with a Christian king who is there when they are there, the Christian king, Najashi, he calls them and asks them, can you say something or speak of your scripture? So they begin to recite Surah Maryam. And one of the traditions reported in the biographical graphical information says that he begins to cry, and he draws a line on the sand and says, the difference between you and I are this. So this. So Maryam, from a very early time, was a point of connection with Christian communities.
Maryam reappears in the biography of the prophet Muhammad towards the end. So after Muhammad migrates to Medina, his community grows, he returns back to Mecca, he's victorious.
Part of establishing Islam in the Arabian peninsula was to cleanse the Ka' Bah of all idols and images. So one tradition says that he goes into the Ka' Bah and he's in the process of cleansing the idols, and. But then he sees a picture of Mary, Maryam, and then he says, cleanse all the pictures and idols except for this one.
So this hadith is not found in the canonical collections, but it is a minor tradition, and it does represent this Muslim memory that Muhammad revered Mary, Maryam and represents that he held her as a model of emulation.
And lastly, there are several hadiths that talk about Maryam being the best of women. So the four best women are mentioned as Fatima, who is the daughter of the prophet Muhammad, Khadijah, the wife of the prophet Muhammad. But then there are two biblical figures coming from the Jewish and Christian traditions. That of Asiya, the wife of Pharaoh, and that of Maryam, who is the mother of Jesus and understood in a broad sense to be a Christian figure. So this, this hadith brings together a lot of different archetypes of women. Fatima being the ideal daughter, Khadija being the ideal mother and wife. We also see that Asiya is a stepmother, and then we see with Maryam that she is the best single mother. So.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: And the first.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe the first before it was a thing. Yeah. So in that prophetic tradition, there is this bringing together these different archetypes of women and women from different parts of the near east, not just Arabia.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: I really appreciated that point in your. I believe I either read it or listened to it on your podcast.
I'll just mention one little thing. I remember reading the part where when the Prophet's little troop goes to Habasha and they're talking to the king and when they recite Surah Maryam and the king starts crying, the way you wrote it, it was so moving to me because I could just imagine a grown man crying. And it was a really moving moment. Anyway, thank you again for that, sort of giving us a sense of how Maryam appears in the Hadith literature.
I'd love to turn now to some of the smaller but really fascinating details of Mariam's story in the Quran.
First, even before she was born, Maryam is uniquely prayed for. Her mother's prayers shape her sacred role while she is still in the wom.
Could you say something about that? And then there's this striking line that you mentioned, which is in the Quran that Maryam's mother expected a son so that she could dedicate him to the temple service. Instead, she gives birth to a daughter and she still fulfills her vow through her daughter. But the verse says, and the male is not like the female. This is chapter three, verse 36.
On the face of it, that sounds pretty patriarchal and hierarchical. Could you elaborate on how classical and modern scholars have understood this verse?
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. So this verse is, as you mentioned, could be understood that the male is better or superior to the female. But if you look at it within the context of adding Imran of chapter three, it's reassuring the mother. So this mother has this expectation that her child, she makes this prayer and that her child or her child will serve the temple and become a rabbi and teacher. And then she has a female. Right. So how is this woman going to do something similar? Yeah, serve the temple. And at that time, part of the commentary tradition mentioned only males would serve the temple. So in fact, Maryam will go on in her unique way to serve the temple, to serve the religious community.
And it represents a way to assure the mother that even though she had a female, her prayer is still going to be fulfilled.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: Another very moving scene in the Quran is when Mary, in the throes of childbirth, is confronted by God with a stream and a date palm. And the verse reads, this is chapter 19, verses 22 to 26.
So she conceived him and withdrew with him to a remote place.
When the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree, she cried, I wish I had died before this. And was a thing long forgotten.
So a voice reassured her from below, do not grieve. Your Lord has provided a stream at your feet and shake the trunk of this palm tree towards you. It will drop fresh, ripe dates upon you. So Eat and drink and put your heart at ease.
This is going to be a slightly long question about these verses. So there are three parts to my question. What I'd love for you to elaborate on is first, classical scholars often explain Mary's cry, which is the cry of, I wish I had died before this. And a thing long forgotten as something rooted in shame, the fear of bearing a child out of wedlock. But in your book, you suggest that it's more than that. It's an expression of deep human vulnerability and a recognition of the new, of the raw, physical, emotional hardship of childbirth itself. Could you tell our audience more about this?
Second, you write that the verse 1923 uses a hapex, a word that appears only this once in the Quran. You note that focusing on hapexes helps us appreciate the Quran's literary, rhetorical and stylistic depth.
Often these unique words signal that something extraordinary is happening in the narrative, that the story is at a turning point. Could you expand on how this rare word adds to the power of the scene? And then finally, this is something very close to my heart because I feel like it reveals a missed opportunity for the Muslim community, past and present.
In the sacred scene of childbirth, Mary or Maryam is provided with a garden like space, date palms, fresh water at her feet, nourishment, and words of divine reassurance.
Eat, drink, and let your heart be at ease. It is a vision of childbirth not only acknowledged, but honored. A model of care, dignity and beauty at the very threshold of life.
And yet this vision has not inspired Muslims historically or today, to create birthing spaces that echo this divine tenderness. Spaces with flowing water, greenery, quiet shelter. Places where women in labor feel safe, nourished and at peace. Why do you think this is? Why hasn't this powerful moment in the Quran shaped how Muslim societies imagine and support childbirth?
[00:19:26] Speaker B: All right, wonderful. Thanks for those.
[00:19:28] Speaker A: Sorry, sorry about such a long question.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: Those great questions and that close reading of the text in the Quran. So first, you're right that a lot of the secondary literature understands this cry to be of shame. So when I was looking at the English literature written on Maryam, they either overlook this verse and they don't really discuss it in detail, or they say that she's feeling a sense of shame, that she'll go back to her people and they'll condemn her for having a child out of wedlock. So I argue in the book that this phrase fits within the larger context of Surah Maryam. So Surah Maryam is a chapter in the late Meccan era. Where the Muslim community was persecuted, they were small, even tortured. And you feel this raw as you use that word, emotional hardship. And this sense of vulnerability and weakness is found even earlier in the chapter of Maryam. So when we talk about Zechariah, he also makes a prayer, he makes a statement, and he calls out to his Lord saying that he is old, his bones are weak, his hair is white, and he's afraid that he's not going to have any progeny to represent him on this earth. So in many ways these different Quranic statements are connected where they're done by themselves and individual context, but they're speaking about emotions, pain and suffering.
So we also see that this verse is connected to other verses in the Quran.
So there are several verses in the Quran that speak about the importance of being good to your mother.
And one of the reasons why you're supposed to be good to your mother is because she was pregnant with you, that she gave labor and she nursed you. And in particular there's this idea of the pain of labor is mentioned in those verses. And Maryam is, is experiencing that pain and that pain is leading her to cry out and say she wished she was forgotten and that she had died long before.
And then the second thing that you mentioned is the word of the Hapex. And I'm happy you noted that because this is a literary device used in the Quran and it's a Larry device that is, that signals that something important is going to occur. So in the chapter of Maryam, particularly in this, these couple of verses, there are several hapexes. One of them is Mahad, or the pain of the childbirth. Another one is speaking about the trunk of the palm tree that she shakes. So these words are alluding to a climax that something amazing is about to happen. And, and that amazing event is the childbirth of Jesus, of Issa, but not only his birth, but the experience of having that child and the spiritual awakening that Maryam has. And then third, this, I love this observation and I really also love this scene where Maryam is told that she is, she shouldn't be sad, right? She hears this voice from her that she has this dream at her feet, that she's given dates and that she should eat and drink and have her heart at ease. And I think this in the Quran represents a heaven like scene. So if you look at verses in the Quran, they talk about the idea of eating and drinking to your pleasure. So she's almost now in a heaven like space where she's giving birth to her child. She's being comforted by God. And I, you know, I love this idea.
And this could be opportunity to rethink spaces that women have children and to make them into places which are beautiful and, as you say, have divine tenderness.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: So, I mean, I'll say two things. One, I'm feeling very annoyed at myself right now because when I was reading your book, I actually collected odd all the verses that you mentioned in your chapter that speak to motherhood. And I have a document that. And I meant to put it in our. Like, I meant to read those out so that people get a sense of how revered motherhood is. And I didn't do that. So I'm really disappointed in myself. But going back to my final thing, I feel like Muslims could have enshrined in Islamic law that birthing centers be designed in this manner. Right. And just as Islamic law historically regulates many other sometimes unexpected aspects of life, the fact that it wasn't done reflects on who had the authority to interpret the Quran, whose perspectives were taken into account and what could be read into it.
And you know, all of these, obviously it's not about Islamic tradition. Most human traditions are male centric.
So it's not something particular to Islamic traditions.
And I feel, I just want to mention that this is precisely why it is essential that women be included in conversations about law, theology, public policy, so that we can create a world for which the frame of reference is not just male.
But anyway, that was my little.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: No, I like that point. I would add to that is that these verses historically have been understood in terms of spirituality and even mystical practices. I know in Egypt and other places in the Muslim world or Muslim majority countries that Muslim women will recite Surah Maryam before they have a child. But the idea of actually having birthing centers that reflect the scene, I mean.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: If you talk to women, it's such a difficult process. And why not? I mean, anyway, moving forward.
Personally, I find the Quranic story of Mary, especially after reading your book. Like I said, we all know Mary exists, but until I didn't read your book, I didn't see how amazing her story is, full of miracles and mystical mysteries.
One thing that intrigued me was her fast of silence.
And I was wondering if you could like, speak about that. It seems like God asks her to keep a fast of silence as she goes back with baby Jesus or Isa.
And so it is a fast of silence that is for her protection.
And Isa speaks on her behalf. And I remember even in that verse, there's a mention of respecting my mother. Right. Like part of that verse when he speaks on her behalf. And then Zakaria is asked to keep a fast of silence before the miraculous birth of a child. And I wondered if you had read something about this or like, I mention it because it was half of my life had passed before I learned there was some such thing as a fast of silence. And I missed out on observing the fast of silence. So I wondered if you'd read something about, like, if it's mystical, what kind of insights it can give us, it's a spiritual practice, anything like that.
[00:26:43] Speaker B: Yeah, now that. Those are another great observation. And for me, when I was reading Surah Tamarim, it gave me a new understanding of fasting. So as Muslims and Muslim communities, they fast and we think of Som and we think of Ramadan.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, same here.
Exhibit A, right here.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: So here the actual word of fasting is used, soma or so.
And Mariam is told that she should engage in a fast before she goes to a front and for people. And as you note that Zakaria, he also calls out and he asks God for a child, and then he's told not to speak for three days and three nights. So there is this interplay where both Zecaria and Mariam are speaking. They're speaking privately to God, Zakaria asking for a child, Maryam praying and mentioning that she's in a state of suffering and pain. But then they're both told to be silent. And this silence for. Especially for Maryam, will eventually lead to the speech of Jesus, because as she goes back to her people, they start to mock her and condemn her. And they say, oh, Maryam, you come from a good family. Your dad was a good man, and your. Your mother was not unchaste. And she simply points to her child and they once again mock her and say, how are you supposed to speak to this infant? And then Alisa begins to speak, defining himself as a servant of God, as a prophet, someone who will pray and fast. Peace mean on the day he was born, the peace that on the day he will die, and the peace be on the day he's resurrected. And as you know, he mentions there that he will cherish his mother.
So from that early time as an infant, he's already speaking about how he's going to be good to Maryam. So there is this interplay there between speech and silence and the importance of being silent. You don't always have to speak, you don't always have to respond and defend yourself. But God is the ultimate speaker. And and he will, in many ways, allow others to speak on your behalf.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Another aspect of Mariam's story and her importance that I did not know before reading your book was the special reverence that Sufis have for Maryam. And I think you write in your book that it has to do with this. The verse that says that we breathed into her our spirit and made her and her son assigned for all people.
Could you elaborate on why this particular verse has inspired such mystical reflection and how the Sufi tradition understands the significance of God's touch on Mary?
[00:29:28] Speaker B: So this is another powerful verse, and it talks about the importance of remembering Maryam and seeing Maryam as a model of emulation.
So, as you know, the Sufis and mystics, their focus was on getting close to God and being intimate with the divine. So they're always looking for chronic verses or prophetic hadith or just signs of everyday believers that will bring them closer to the divine. And this verse in particular, it talks about how we breathe into her from our spirit. So this is very powerful because Maryam is one of the few chronic figures where the Jibril actually breathes his spirit into her. Now, many figures in the Quran, they have some type of revelation, a dream, inspiration, communication, but she's one of the few, if not the only, where the spirit is breathed into her. So many chronic commentators such as Qurtabi, they were really drawn to this amazing scene and this idea that God sent his messenger and the messenger was breathing the divine spirit or the spirit into her to the point that she'll eventually have a son. And as you know, in this verse, it says and made her and her son assigned for all people. So it was not simply her son that was a sign for all people. And that's something. One of the reasons why I wrote the book, because even within Muslim communities and Christian communities, we often focus on Jesus, Isaac, but we should also focus on Maryam as an individual figure. So the verse is very explicit here that said we breathe into her from our spirit and made her and her son assigned for all people. So it's clear in this verse and many others that she is a sign or a model for Muhammad, the early Muslim community, and all Muslims.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you so much. I really sort of got that.
Moving forward, I will never be able to read Surah Maryam or any mention of Maryam in the same way that I read it before.
Because after reading your book, it's opened up my eyes to so many of the nuances.
For example, the nuance of both Maryam and her Son was assigned for people. And I feel like with Isa or Jesus being a prophet and, you know, a prophet having so much light that the mother can be etched out of the picture. But it is in reading your book that I felt like she was etched back in for me. Not that I didn't revere her, but I don't think I really understood how to revere her at this point. I should also sort of. Maybe some of our readers might not know what Sufism is. And so just to quickly give them. Sufism isn't a separate sect of Islam. Sometimes people think it's a separate sect of Islam, like maybe Shia or Sunni. Rather, it's an inclination, and you can tell me if you agree with what I'm saying.
And this inclination, in my understanding, grows out of two realizations.
One is that some Muslims realize, and this is true through Muslim theology too, that we've been separated from God, but everyone is not attuned to the separation. For some, this realization awakens a deep longing for God.
And the second realization that, you know, Muslims who are about to become Sufis or are practicing Sufis have this idea that their instinct is really basic and it's base. And it's really. The basic instincts are pretty base and basic.
And to return to unity with God, a person has to purify their soul. And Sufis do this through rigorous spiritual training. So as a Sufi spends his life seeking intimacy with God to quell this longing that they have for God, the love for God, this yearning for union, is what animates their practices.
On top of the outer practices all Muslims share, let's say, daily prayers, fasting, almsgiving. Sufis also engage in internal esoteric practices. These are known as the savuf, the path to becoming a Sufi.
One example of a spiritual training is this. Once a person has mastered saying their five daily prayers on time, they might move on to committing, to never ever getting angry.
Then once they've sort of mastered that, they might commit to never lying, they might add to this renunciatory practices. So not over consuming material things, avoiding overeating, giving constantly in charity. All of these practices focus on purifying the soul through ethics.
Sufis call these makamaat, or spiritual stations. And they're not done in the order I've mentioned. Different Sufi orders do it in different ways.
Another set of practices that are very important Sufis are zikr, chanting the names of God. Often this means repeating God's qualities over and over, internalizing them so that the soul is both purified and clad with God's attributes. There's much more that can be said, but I wanted to share at least this much for the listeners. And it goes back to the verse that, you know, Gabriel breathed his spirit into Mary and which is why like Sufis are so like revere Mary so profoundly.
Moving on to my next question. In your book, you note that some Muslim scholars, particularly from Andalusia, which is present day Spain, Ibn Hazm, who died in 1064, and Al Qurtubi, who died in 1273, consider Mary, Sarah, wife of Abraham, the mother of Moses, and Asia, the wife of the Pharaoh, to be prophets. Could you walk us through who these scholars were and what led them to make such a remarkable claim?
And if you have any thoughts on why this is not. This claim that these four women are prophets did not become more mainstream in our understanding of female prophets.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: All right, great, yeah. And just to add to your definition of Sufism, which I really like and I think it's concise and meaningful, is this idea of Maryam being a model for the Sufis. So you mentioned here the renunciatory practices.
So not over consuming, avoiding, overeating. And there is this idea of som as going back maybe to the earlier question of abstaining. So Maryam actually abstains from speaking.
So we may think eating and drinking is. And not eating or drinking is difficult, but also not speaking is also challenging. So she actually does some of these practices of abstaining that actually lead to spiritual growth and healing. So part of the idea of som, the literal sense, is to abstain, but not just to engage in suffering and pain, but rather to attain a higher spiritual state. State. And I think also for Sufis, another characteristic that's important is miracles, because miracles represent divine favor, they represent divine signs. And Maryam, the story of her are full of miracles. Whether she has fruits out of season, she has a child without immaculate conception. Yeah, immaculate conception. She goes to her people and her child begins to see speak. So I think miracles are important in terms of understanding hope and understanding how God intervenes in the world. So in terms of your question about the different figures. So Ibn Hazm and Qurtabi have slightly different arguments and have a longer article that speaks about their different points. But the basic idea is that these figures are spoken to directly by the divine. So the divine will inspire the mother of Moses that will speak to Asia when she is being tortured. And also an angel comes and speaks directly to Sarah or Sarah, and in particular with Maryam, many of Them such as quoth to behold them, to be the best of all these figures. And. And Qutbi actually believes that Maryam was a prophet while the others were not, while Ibn Hazm believes all of them were prophets because all of them were spoken to, is that the idea is that Maryam was not only spoken to, but that she had the divine, that the messenger Gabriel blew his spirit into her. So there is this real close and divine intimacy that's there. And I think why this argument doesn't win out in the Islamic tradition and the majority of Muslims today will not hold or understand or never even thought that these women could be prophets, is that there is this idea that a prophet is not only defined in terms of your connection with God, but also in terms of your role. So the prophet's role is to do da', wah, to do missionary or proselytization work, to preach the message, to go to a group of people and call them to God, where these figures are spoken to by angels or inspired, but they don't necessarily play a public proselytizing role.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: I mean, I hear you and I hear the distinction that some scholars have made that you have captured. I think it's a real lost opportunity in not widely imagining Maryam and other women as prophets. If Muslims had understood her this way, it could have shifted the general consciousness about women in Islam, especially for men, who often assume there's something uniquely special about men and them being prophets. After all, Hadith tells us that there are more than 124,000 prophets throughout history, and some of them could have been women. If Maryam had been recognized broadly as a prophet, Muslims might have spent far more time reflecting on her legacy and learning from her example than we have. And like I said, even as a practice of Muslim, I missed out on so much and your book like really sort of put a light on her.
As we wrap up. What are your conclusions about Maryam and how do you see her relevance today, both on a broader interfaith level and more locally or personally, for example, as a model for leadership in contemporary contexts.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: So I think Maryam is important for several reasons. For in the contemporary times, first off, that in our contemporary world, the two largest religions are Christianity and Islam. And there is a Pew study that demonstrates by 2050, more than half of the world's population be either Christian or Muslim. And Christians and Muslims will be roughly around the same number. So it is essential that we thinking about global and international peace, that Christians and Muslims have the ability to work with one another, understand each other and find shared figures such as Maryam to help build bridges. I think a second reason is this idea that you mentioned already of the importance of rethinking women in Islam. And this idea of seeing women not overshadowed by their sons or overshadowed by other male figures, but see them as protagonists, see them as role models, as teachers, as spiritual exemplars. And I think Maryam provides this historical example that actually inspires others, such as Rabi Adawiya. And we find in modern times the idea of a female scholar or female religious and spiritual leader picking up more momentum. And lastly, I think Maryam is important because we all are modern people. We enjoy our smartphones, our tablets, we're using AI more and more, and we enjoy the benefits of modern life. But all of us, I think, want to have a connection with history, with tradition, with classical and medieval times. And I think Maryam is someone who lives in history, but her model and example continues to influence people today and is inspiring modern religion and spirituality.
[00:41:59] Speaker A: Thank you so much. And I'm just also reminded of how you mentioned in your book that the Quran says that Maryam is a model for both men and women. So that was like, a really important point that I spoke with my students about.
Anyway, we are so grateful that you joined us for this conversation, Yunus. The fact that a male Muslim school scholar has devoted such depth and attention to Mariam is a gift to the tradition and to all of us. So thank you for joining us today.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: Thank you very much.
